One of those people

Most of you who know me know that I love a good, spirited debate, and that I find a lot of enjoyment and value in people openly discussing topics on which they have very different ideas. But have you guys ever run into someone with whom you just could not help but downright argue with because their views were so disparate from your own?

I realize to most people here, that person might be me in a lot of cases, but I'm talking more like someone you know in real life, a sibling, friend, or coworker - someone you have to share a collective space with on a regular basis. How do you manage coexisting with someone whose views are not only different than your own, but are in active and constant opposition to your own?

I just get so worked up sometimes in discussions with this person that it makes me say things I sometimes regret later. I know this sounds like I need anger management or something, but I'm pretty sure this is something that everyone has experienced at one time or another, so any stories would be great to hear.

Well for me that is my dad. He and I are exact polar opposites when it comes to multiple things. But usually I just try to keep calm and not raise my voice. Just gotta try to do the same thing man.

And also, it makes them look more like an ass when they are yelling at someone who isn't yelling back so it basically give you the advantage.

I used to be that way many years ago. And I could not really tell you at what point that I changed, or why. I, at some point, started just letting those type people just have their say and keep quiet on my end. If I do say anything it would be to change the subject, if that is possible. If not, I turn my attention to doing something, not looking at them, and putting my mind on something else. There is also the, "Oh man, I forgot about something that I was supposed to do right now. Sorry got to go." I try to avoid confrontations with people that do not want to discuss something, they only want to argue with someone. A discussion is an exchange of ideas. An arguement is forced opinion on someone. YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR OPINION TO BE LIKE MINE! I don't mind a good discussion.

If I am around those type people every day, I try to stick to something that does not go into the confrontation mode.

I was gonna say that maybe it's just an age thing but then I realized some of the biggest babies are 30+ year old men :lol So, there's always gonna be "that guy", but I think eventually you will learn that he's just not worth your stress. I've learned that there's a lot of people who will argue just for the sake of arguing, and they will always find a way to get under your skin.

I hear you guys. Normally I can say, at some point, to each their own and walk away without being too miffed, but when that attitude is what they're so adamantly opposed to, it's harder. :lol

You are right though. Cooler heads often prevail, and they sound more reasonable in the process. At the same time I feel like failing to respond to the challenge is almost an admission of an inability to respond. It's like, at what point does being the better person mean not letting your beliefs get put down and trounced on? When does appeasement turn into cowardice?

I dunno, I feel like there are lines that just shouldn't be crossed. At some point, I have to stand up for what I believe is right, but it's tough to know what that is, especially when "to each their own" is part of what I believe is right.

You can see my dilemma.

I have had my fair share of arguments and I know that "that guy" has been me at one time or another. however, to be honest "the guy" for me is none other than myself.

it might sound like I am crazy but hear me out. Every time I go back and read things I have said or expressed previously in the past I can't help but want to go back in time and give myself a smack. When I started going into the forum scene I had no idea what being in an argument actually entailed, what the purpose of an argument truly was.

This caused me to argue with the objective of "winning" an argument by trying to prove that someone' opinion was "wrong" or did not have any bases. It didn't have to be the complete opposite just different. Of course after realizing all of these arguments where useless and I was just making a fool of myself I did some soul searching to try and realize what the purpose of arguing was for myself.

Eventually what I found was that I did not care if the person changed their mind about a particular topic. What my purpose is in every argument or debate is to show the opposite side that my opinion is not mindless, brainwashed, or just random. I want to show people that I have my reasons for thinking the way I think and that I respect their opinion.

In addition, I want to know why the person thinks the way they think. What is the reason why they back up a subject so vividly. In fact, nowadays if a person fails to do this or beats around the bush in a debate it would actually still get on my nerves.

An example I guess would be when we were debating about the law that would heavily penalize clerks who would sell M rated games to children below the age of 17. I kept going with it because I was trying to show Stealth where we were all coming from (unfortunately I guess I couldn't express that very well) and I wanted to know exactly where his opinion on the matter came from. That debate got really heated up and in the end I don't think the purpose was completely accomplished but it was enjoyable nonetheless.

When I was younger I thought that proving I was right or winning an argument was a really big deal, so I ende up in a lot of em. Nowadays, I don't like arguing at all, unless it is just a playful goofy one. But I dislike debates er anything of the sort. My younger brother loves debating with people tho. I do like open discussions where people are all allowed to give their honest opinion.

When I was younger there were a few people who I usually felt the need to argue with and they all were strongly opinionated kinda forceful about their views type people. Now, i try to avoid those sorts of people, or if have to be near them I just stay away from talking about anything controversial. If they bring up a topic, or say something insulting bout what i am doing er something I just say something like "Ya, well, I feel differently then u on that" and leave it at that.

At some point u will prolly realize that anyone with a strong differing view is never going to change their view becuz of anything u say er do er prove. U could put evidence supporting ur side right in front of em and they will still argue on how u are wrong, so there is no point arguing about it, u r just wasting ur breath and raising ur stress level, and they will remain as grouchy and stubborn as ever.

I guess personally I just try to stay around loving, layed back, easy going people, er even slightly lazy people, and I usually don't get into any arguments lol. But I guess if those r the kind of people u can't agree with er stand, then it won't work for u.

In my mind the most positive important thing about a situation is usually the "getting along" part, perhaps becuz I am part libra. Since I am part scorpio too, there is also stuff I can barely stand and wanna say something about, but...hmmm, I just wanna get along and be liked and stuff, amd arguing has never brought those results for me.

It is more important to me to get to be liked er accepted then to get to be right on most topics.

Too bad u can't get away from the person urking u somehow...?

I don't mind if someone wants to discuss a big issue with me like weather or not people should take anti-depressants, have abortions, or go on welfare etc.

But... if they want me to actually discuss it with them, it can't be an argument. They can tell why they feel er believe like they do and I can do the same, but it can't cross over into them telling me why I have to think their way and how my way of thinking is all wrong etc, becuz then I just don't even wanna talk about. I just want to understand people or hear why and how they reason and think. Unless I asked for advice, I do not want to be told how I am doing it all wrong er thinking all wrong. I try to be respectful of other's views, and, yes, sometimes I think their views aren't that bright or are unhealthy...but it is still their views, and they get to make their own choices and have their own views. Freeedom of choice, freedom to think for themselves etc. Most of the time lots of different views all can make sense if u look at it from their perspective instead of always looking at everyones views with a closed boxed in mind.

Ok, well, so much for my whole thing about not arguing, I think I just got into one with someone on facebook. lol. But Iget kinda ticked off when people start saying how being gay means u get kicked out of church and can't go to heaven, even tho they don't kick anyone out for lying to their kids about santa clause (and lying is mentioned too) and they don't kick people out for lust and usually not even for being effeninate er lasciviousness er drunkness etc and those are all mentioned too. It is so inconsistent. Whether u think being gay is fine er super evil...if u r going to think it is super evil becuz of scriptures u should at least abhor all the other things mentioned in the same passages just as much and not single out one thing. See, that type of stuff makes me feel argumentative cuz it just seems so lame. Now a number of u might disagree with me and like the person in the thread on facebook, might say I "am being just as judgemental as anyone else becuz I am judging the religious people who are judging according to the Bible" I find it almost funny actually, so I guess it does not feel like a serious argument to me. I have no intention of opening the other persons eyes to seeing things my way. I know they can't. And I don't feel like arguing with them all day either. No point to it. But I did feel like saying my two sense on the issue for others who read that thread. And I am glad I can think for myself Personally, I am not "religious" so I don't have any sort of issue with whether someone is straight er gay, tho I know it is a really big deal for others.

I appreciate your honesty. Sorry peeps are being so lame.

I am religious, and do think homosexuality is, err, a gray area at best, but I also agree with you that homosexual people should not be banned from a church. The church should be for everyone; that's the whole point. If you're going to exclude sinners, then you're going to exclude everyone.

But it's also something I'm super conflicted about, internally. Like, how does one be a Christian in a modern, multicultural, pluralistic society, when many people belonging to other religions ultimately believe you're wrong about certain things, and vice versa? As a Christian I'm supposed to love everyone, especially my enemies, but figuring out how to do that in some situations is really difficult. For the most part I've tried to live and let live, but at times it feels like it has to be one or the other. That's sort of why I posted this in the first place: how do you decide what to do when one of your fundamental beliefs is constantly challenged by someone else? How do I "love" you when you lead a lifestyle I would denounce others from living? I hope you understand I'm really not trying to single you out here, you're just a really great example of someone who I want to be good to without sacrificing who I think I ought to be. Does that make sense? It's tough to wrap my head around.

I've also met some really intolerant Christians who get on my nerves, maybe even more than they get on yours, because I feel they are giving a really bad name to something I hold dear. They do not believe what I do, but they call themselves the same thing I call myself, and that means that I always have to fight this uphill battle to tell people I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm like "x," "y," and "z."

But Zidart is right: I've been "one of those people" a lot too. It does feel hypocritical to get frustrated with someone who believes something else as strongly as I do. I think a lot of the things people have said here is true: the less you let it bother you the better off everyone else is, and the more convincing you are in making your point, whatever it is. Still, it's hard sometimes.

I think If people are trying to change my point of view without first giving me logical reasons or change the way I live without giving me a reason behind it.

For example, as a gay person that is very interested in humanities and religious beliefs I can understand how many people want to keep the sanctity of marriage, because for them, gay marriage is the equivalent of someone mocking their believes, I know for a fact that the gay community has not done much to prove that we are like everyone else (I don't approve of the gay pride parade because they just show a very overly sexual part of our being rather than our whole). So whenever someone of strong christian believes confronts me and my "gay agenda" I assure them that all I want is a civil union with the same rights as a married couple, I do not want to change the definition of the word marriage nor do I want to interfere in their beliefs.

if the person I am talking with accepts my explanation, great. If they keep preaching me about my life and pushes his agenda of changing my orientation, that's when he becomes "one of those people" because even though I clearly stated I don't want to mess with their beliefs AT ALL they still want to push theirs onto me, even though it does not affect them in the slightest.

It happens in this thread. I explain to people why I love my Nintendo Wii (or used to anyway) and if they continue to tell me i should throw it to the garbage (which even today I would not do) I just have to turn a blind eye to the whole subject because it becomes less about sharing opinions and more about arguing.

Over the course of my life I've come to understand there are certain things that I won't debate... because I am not willing to doubt my own opinion, and to me a good debate is only achieved if all participating parties are willing to doubt what they believe.

Zidart said:

if the person I am talking with accepts my explanation, great. If they keep preaching me about my life and pushes his agenda of changing my orientation, that's when he becomes "one of those people" because even though I clearly stated I don't want to mess with their beliefs AT ALL they still want to push theirs onto me, even though it does not affect them in the slightest.

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I agree with ur statement
That is what bothers me. People who think in a box and won't accept anyone who thinks outside of their box. I don't mind hearing why people think a certain way, and I know a Christian couple who talk a lot about why they do what they do, but I really respect the fact that they never push anything on me or try to make me be them.

Also, my husband really wants me to ask u why u don't like ur wii as much anymore. lol

Also @ Stealth, I can see how that if u believe the Bible is Gods Holy Word that u would be put into a great number of awkward situations in this society. It is great if u can somehow work everything out and make everything jive, but there are some pretty strong clear cut teachings in the Bible that I would assume would make u feel put between a rock and a hard place. How do u make people feel loved and welcomed and at the same time think they are sinning and hellward bound? The passage that comes to mind is that one about if u deny me before men I will deny u on the last day er something along those lines. One of the things that most bothers me about a lot of religious people I know (not u, was talking in general) is that a lot seem to focus in on a couple of sins listed in the Bible and plainly ignore other listed ones er make a very little deal out of them. I think it prolly comes from humans need to feel adequate er safe, if someone is worse evil er more sinful then perhaps they are good enough. I am sure u have run across this sort of thing in ur life at times. Not all religious people condemn er look down on others, but I can see how they can feel conflicted when their book plainly tells them things are evil er wrong etc.

@ Gelfwings:

Luckily I'm not a Biblical literalist or anything; those people definitely end up having to follow some seemingly obscure stuff. That doesn't mean being a non-Biblical-literalist-Christian is easy. In fact, in some ways it's harder, because there is no literal rule-book to follow. I can't just check the Book and take it at face value; I have to think about it a lot to understand it. While I don't have to worry about refusing to do any work on Saturday or trying to prove that the earth is only 4000 years old, I do have to worry about what Jesus meant when he told me to forgive those who have done me wrong seventy multiplied by seven times. Because it seems like what he meant was never stop forgiving. But that's way harder than if there is a limit, especially depending on the person who wrongs me.

Like, what if those people are d-bags? :lol

Which I think is actually what you guys are talking about too. It's like, when people get all up in my face about how me being religious also means I'm uneducated/gullible/inexperienced/childish, and then they argue with me about how I should change and whatnot, it sucks. But I bet you guys get that all the time too. I bet people get up in your face about how being gay means you're a sinner and therefore a whole bunch of bad things, and you should change because of x, y, and z.

Oh and as far as that whole gay/lesbian marriage thing goes, I can totally get behind this:

all I want is a civil union with the same rights as a married couple, I do not want to change the definition of the word marriage nor do I want to interfere in their beliefs.

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It seems ridiculous to me that something like that is so controversial. It's one of those things where it should only matter if it directly affects you. Like, if I'm straight then this should be none of my concern, right? I dunno, it's probably more complicated.

What a bizarre world we live in. :lol There are times when it's certainly difficult to make sense of.

stealth toilet said:

It seems ridiculous to me that something like that is so controversial. It's one of those things where it should only matter if it directly affects you. Like, if I'm straight then this should be none of my concern, right? I dunno, it's probably more complicated.

What a bizarre world we live in. :lol There are times when it's certainly difficult to make sense of.

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the majority of the gay community does not think like me, they want the word Marriage. The majority of Christians want "marriage" to remain between a man and a woman. And that's where the whole controversy starts.

I personally think neither side is doing much to convince the other... gay people always portray and judge religious individuals as terrible, brainwashed monsters, while religious people view gay individuals as sinners, pedophiles, and immoral.

Although I have had a Catholic upbringing, I eventually stopped following Catholicism. I think it is because I began to do some research into many other religions and became so interested in them that I sort of no longer follow one specific religion.

stealth toilet said:

I appreciate your honesty. Sorry peeps are being so lame.

I am religious, and do think homosexuality is, err, a gray area at best, but I also agree with you that homosexual people should not be banned from a church. The church should be for everyone; that's the whole point. If you're going to exclude sinners, then you're going to exclude everyone.

But it's also something I'm super conflicted about, internally. Like, how does one be a Christian in a modern, multicultural, pluralistic society, when many people belonging to other religions ultimately believe you're wrong about certain things, and vice versa? As a Christian I'm supposed to love everyone, especially my enemies, but figuring out how to do that in some situations is really difficult. For the most part I've tried to live and let live, but at times it feels like it has to be one or the other. That's sort of why I posted this in the first place: how do you decide what to do when one of your fundamental beliefs is constantly challenged by someone else? How do I "love" you when you lead a lifestyle I would denounce others from living? I hope you understand I'm really not trying to single you out here, you're just a really great example of someone who I want to be good to without sacrificing who I think I ought to be. Does that make sense? It's tough to wrap my head around.

I've also met some really intolerant Christians who get on my nerves, maybe even more than they get on yours, because I feel they are giving a really bad name to something I hold dear. They do not believe what I do, but they call themselves the same thing I call myself, and that means that I always have to fight this uphill battle to tell people I am a Christian, but that doesn't mean I'm like "x," "y," and "z."

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You know? I agree (almost) 100%.
Same with me about fighting an uphill battle in anything Christian-related…

And yes, we do live in a bizarre world. :lol

the majority of the gay community does not think like me, they want the word Marriage. The majority of Christians want "marriage" to remain between a man and a woman. And that's where the whole controversy starts.

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Do you know why the gay community want the word marriage? I don't get that either. If they are recognized the same under the law, why do they want the religious recognition as well?

I personally think neither side is doing much to convince the other... gay people always portray and judge religious individuals as terrible, brainwashed monsters, while religious people view gay individuals as sinners, pedophiles, and immoral.

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Yeah, especially when there's a tendency to over-generalize and say things like "all gay people" or "all religious people," and of course you and I both know from experience those statements are never true. It's funny, in a way, because I get the sense that you feel like a minority in the gay community, while I feel like a minority in the religious community. I'll defend my community to those who lobby accusations at it from the outside, but many is the time when those inside of it make me shake my head.

Although I have had a Catholic upbringing, I eventually stopped following Catholicism. I think it is because I began to do some research into many other religions and became so interested in them that I sort of no longer follow one specific religion.

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Strange. I did pretty much the exact opposite. I was raised Catholic but became somewhat disenchanted with Catholicism. I spent a couple years really studying other religions and it ended up bringing me all the way back to catholicism. I found not following a specific religion to be intellectually unsatisfying, and looking at the theology I found catholicism to be the most rigorously reasoned out. That could change over time as I come into contact with more information and insight, but at the moment it really seems to me to be the best way.

You know? I agree (almost) 100%.
Same with me about fighting an uphill battle in anything Christian-related

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I hear yeah. It's tough. All the more reason for me to figure out how I can keep from becoming part of the group that embarrasses the rest. :lol

stealth toilet said:

Do you know why the gay community want the word marriage? I don't get that either. If they are recognized the same under the law, why do they want the religious recognition as well?

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I think that it is because they want to be accepted in their religions regardless of their sexuality. They want to continue going to church, praying, and participating in church related events.

Also I believe some of them have been raised with the idea that a wedding is the most wonderful thing in the world and they want to be able to marry their loved one and fulfill that desire.

Although I know many people who have a Faux ceremony that is just there as a symbol of unity but it is not necessarily officially sanctioned by a priest. I would probably go that route. However many couples want the real deal.

I was raised in a strict Christian household. My dad has been a pastor my whole life, so I have been exposed to a lot of judgemental people and been wittness to a number of disfellowshipping procedures etc, my dad even wouldm't talk to me or eat with me when I started dating my first husband, becuz of the sex before marriage thing. Now, whether wrong or right I do truly feel he was trying to be right with God and put God first and wanted to somehow save me by doing that, tho it mostly just made me very depressed and I turned to cutting. Not that that is his fault. Every parent no matter how hard they try is going to at some point fail their child, and hopefully at that point the child can forgive their parents and acept them anyhow becuz love is stronger. Now, tho I am not "gay" I guess fit into the bisexual category. Tho, I have only every been with two people, both male, and both of which I married.

But tho my whole life is much different then some, I have seen the way my cousin is looked down upon and treated by my relatives (part of the same strict church as my folks) , just becuz my cousin is a lesbian and went to Canada to marry her wife.

Not all religious people behave that way tho. If they follow the Bible literally tho, they would all have to end up taking a similar stance.

I was raised in a very strict boxed in view of Christianity etc, so that is my background and exposure and as a young adult I joined a cult for nine years which was a mixture of Amish, muslin, and Jehovahs witness beliefs mixed with strict Christian beliefs, and I know that people's backgrounds affect them.

I was taught that in my upbringing and in the cult that is someone is gay its becuz they chose to be er life events, that noone is born that way and that they can change. Everyone can believe what they wish, but whether a person is born that way or certain events molded them that way..then that is who they are, in my opinion.

For instance, I am generally only attracted to much younger guys with a very strong feminine side, or strong feeling women. If someone were to tell me that I had to be attracted only to older men I would not be able to repent of the error of my ways and go live a happy life falling for older guys. That is not how I am made up. There is nothing at all wrong with liking older guys, but to me it would feel really really unattractive. The guy has to feel younger to feel attractive.

When people try to tell gay people to repent and that God will help them be strong and stuff, it feels very unfeeling to me and like they do not understand or care to understand what others are going thru. I know that people feel they have to say er do these things when they wanna obey every word of the Bible a lot of times. I feel sort of bad for both parties involved becuz they r both stuck feeling er thinking what they believe and the thoughts do not fit together.

I don't object to the idea of God, or even the God mentioned in the Bible. My problem is only with thinking that everything in the Bible was directly inspired/written by God thru men. I am sure I feel this way becuz of my life experiences.

Anyhow I did not mean to turn your whole thread into a gay marriage thread er anything.

That's tough man.

I'm very much an anti-biblical literalist, not on any religious grounds persay - mostly as a B.A. English Major, lol. After studying semiotics and language for 4 years, you start to realize that there's no such thing as "literal." There are no fixed meanings of words, so anything written in one language or another will inevitably mean more than one thing to different people. I don't think this undermines absolute truth or biblical truth, but it does undermine the notion that there is only one way to interpret and/or come to know that truth - even the bible warns of people other than Jesus who think they have total access to God the Father and the capital T truth.

But that's all kind of religious-talk anyway.

Basically I just wanted to say that you shouldn't feel bad for making this thread about gay marriage - that's one of those topics that can really flush out "those people." For example, there's some American political candidate of... something, forgive my ignorance but I don't know what, and he talks about how it's a shame that even though there are gay people in the military, Christians can't pray in schools. As a result, my facebook has exploded with posts of people both for and against this campaign commercial. It certainly divides people who would normally get along.

My response to the video is that it's a complete non-sequiter, i.e. gay people being part of the military has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with people who want to pray in school. The campaign ad offends me as a logician, not a Christian. But that's neither here nor there.

Mostly I just find it kind of interesting that, at times, we all feel torn between two things. Obviously we're torn between two different things, but torn nonetheless. I also just want to repeat that there are Christians out there (like me) who don't hate gay people, lol. Refusing to marry two gay people doesn't mean we hate anyone, it just means we're encountering something that hasn't traditionally come up before, and we are looking for the wisdom to act justly in this matter as much as anyone else is.

Does that make me sound guilty? :lol

You were right, this thread did go off the rails...

As to the praying in schools part of ur post ( I am kinda even more off topic here) but I think kids should be allowed to pray in school. I think it seems pretty goofy to not allow it. I can understand not having a teacher lead a prayer for everyone er someone being forced to pray, but it also makes people uncomfortable if they get in trouble for bowing their head and mumbling a prayer before eating. It creates inner conflict in kids who wish to pray but feel they will get in trouble and then have to decide whether to stand up and fight for it and make a big deal or sink into the shadows and feel like they r being ashamed of being Christian er something. forcing non christians to sit thru prayers is uncomfortable but so is forcing christians not to pray, in my opinion.

Are there schools where kids aren't allowed to pray in them? I thought this political candidate was just makin stuff up? :lol

I know in Canadian public schools people are allowed to pray. Most don't, because of peer pressure and whatnot, but schools have no authority to keep people from praying.

How can you even stop someone from praying? Like you said, do they just not allow people to bow their head and speak before eating? :lol

I remember singing the national anthem, and then saying the "Our Father" prayer, every morning in my public elementary school. I totally understand that teachers can no longer force kids to say a Christian prayer in schools (I do remember kids who just did not say the prayer with everyone, but I think that was because they were from a different denomination or something - ironic, I know), but it does seem equally absurd to try and stop them from praying on their own.

Exactly like what you said, it's just reversing the double-standard, not solving it. :