Nintendo's goin down

stealth toilet

Moderator
We can all see the writing on the wall. The Wii was a fluke, a lucky success, neither capitalized on nor built upon in any way. With its glory days well in the past, and the recent blunder that has been the 3DS, I think we can all see that the Nintendo we knew and loved has entered its sunset years.

But what do you think? Will Nintendo ever recapture the dominance and glory that was the SNES? Have they got something up their sleeve that will be a game changer? Is the new Nintendo system/controller going to revolutionize the industry? Am I too early in putting the last nail in their coffin?
 
I personally think it is too early to put the nail in their coffin... however I highly doubt anything can get them back to NES/SNES status as far as gamers go. And I wouldn't count the 3DS out just yet, after all even the PS3 and PSP took a while before they became successes.

Nintendo can probably survive these low sales... after all the N64 and the Gamecube were not as successful as the PS1 and PS2 counterparts yet they still continued strong.

I think gaming as a whole is in the downers at this point. But I honestly won't let that get to me I will instead enjoy whatever games come my way that I find interesting or appealing, and just wait and see what happens.
 
They have too much cash reserve to just go under so easily. They'll be around for a while. Plus, the 3DS is their PSP. It'll come around eventually but not for everybody. They just won't be as dominate as they used to be and realize they need to focus more on games and not trying to be different.
 
I think the gaming market is somewhat flooded. Those NES/SNES days were what they were due to the video game market being drastically reduced. During the NES days, Nintendo had nearly complete control of the market and little competition from Sega's MasterSystem. They could accept or reject third party peripherals and third party games. Most ideas were fresh, even sequels were fairly new.

This carried over slightly to the SNES days, though the Genesis did garner some attention and money from gamers at the time.

Separating from Sony's manufacturing of some parts for the SNES was a bad move that led to the Playstation and its successors.

The market now has six active systems, PS2, PS3, PSP, Xbox 360, Wii, and 3DS. Beyond the fact that people also may have PC games and older consoles, the current systems have at least five other competetors opposed to the SNES and GameBoy countering the Genesis and GameGear.

Sequels now are often old, tired, rehashed takes on the same stories created back then. There are some new games and new ideas still hitting the market, but they are often lost in the clutter...

I do not think that Nintendo is done, but it does not appear that they will have the massive advantage in market share that they once had.
 
I think Nintendo has just lost touch with gamers. They may have commercial success with casual gamers like they did with the Wii, but they won't gain the gamers back unless they actually start listening to fans and making and publishing games that gamers want to play, instead of just putting the games out that they want to put out and gamers have to play that or have nothing to play.
 
Stealth, why am I not surprised you disperse such a bold statement to the public? You wicked little man! You always start a good fire.

I'm agreeing with Mai and saying that Nintendo has lost touched with it's core audience now. They claimed to have it locked, but after delays and cancelling projects. It's hard for those gamers to keep their faith in such loyalty of a product.
 
http://blogs.forbes.com/wallaceforbes/2011/07/26/video-game-industry-isnt-playing-around-why-nintendo-is-a-good-investment/

And here's some piece of advice that Nintendo isn't going down.

Chris Richey: It has been an interesting couple of years, and particularly a “hot” year in international investing. The MSCI EAFE (stock market index that is designed to measure the equity market performance of developed markets outside of the U.S. & Canada ) was up 31% for the year, which is remarkable in and of itself. That’s something we don’t expect to see happen every year. But, as you know, keeping up with hot markets is pretty difficult for value investors, because we’re looking for sound balance sheets and solid businesses, which are often unexciting. But now that QE2 has come to an end and the bill collectors are knocking at the door in Greece – and perhaps Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland as well – we’re seeing markets soften up and some of that heat dissipate. We’re starting to see some new and very interesting value ideas appear on our screens.

One of them that we’ve come across is Nintendo, a Japanese company. Readers with children or teenagers will recognize them from the Nintendo DS or the Wii console and the hours their children spend on these things. Nintendo has an un-sponsored level one ADR that trades in New York and is fairly liquid.

It’s got a $27 billion market cap, so it’s a large cap stock. And it has been around for over 100 years, which may surprise some. It’s one of the inventors of card games in Japan, back in the early part of the 20th century, and has evolved through the Game Boy and Mario Brothers and all those games. The two most recent products are the DS and the Wii. Both were wildly successful, but they’re coming to the end of their useful technological lives because, over the last five to seven years, there have been some tremendous advancements in the technology through which you can deliver these games — both electronically and over the internet.

Nintendo has 0% debt, which we like to see. That is comforting — particularly in the gaming space. As I said, this is a trough year and the stock price is down some 20% over the last three months, after the introduction of the replacement for the DS – the 3DS – which is the first product to use 3D technology in a hand-held game space without the need to use special glasses. When you go to the movie theater, or generally on home 3D televisions, you’ve got to wear glasses. Nintendo was able to get the technology so that you look at the screen and it shows 3D images.

Wallace Forbes: That’s a terrific advance.

Richey: They just recently announced the Wii U, the successor to the Wii, which has some interesting aspects to it. But the market does not seem impressed with either the 3Ds or the Wii U, and the stock price has taken a tumble.

What attracts us to the stock is the fact that of the $27 billion in market cap, $14 billion is in unencumbered cash. So more than half of the value in the company is held in short-term, cash-like instruments. Which means – even with the depressed earnings and the market down on them – when you take out the cash, it’s trading at about 11.5 times earnings and one-and-a- half times book, including the cash, and under book if you exclude the cash.

Plus, you get a 3% dividend yield, which is why it shows up on our screens. Those are a lot of the metrics we look for: Zero debt, low earnings multiples, low book multiples, and some sort of current payment on your money. I will admit that my colleague and I both have young children in these age brackets, so we’re very familiar with the products.

Forbes: So you’re getting educated at home.

Richey: We’ve gotten an education. We’ve played these things, and even the competitors as well. Nintendo is impressive because they have about 40% of the console market out there, and they compete against two pretty staunch competitors, Microsoft and Sony. And they also have about 70% of the hand-held market.

Now, I think what people are anticipating is that there’s been a radical sea change in the video gaming community – both hand-held and consoles. We agree with the consensus about the hand-held gaming space: the iPhone, iTouch, and smartphones in general have forever changed the hand-held gaming world. They’re no longer dedicated purely to games; you can do multiple things on the devices.

I think that’s a major sea change, even with a 3D capability on the 3DS. And so we don’t anticipate Nintendo getting anywhere near the peak sales they had on the DS. In fact, we think they’ll only get about a third of the sales they got on the DS with the new 3DS, including software, which is an important business component of the gaming industry.

However, we disagree profoundly with consensus view on the console market and the Wii U. The market is discounting sales of one half or lower for the Wii U versus those of the Wii. We think it’s going be about two thirds – and about half the software sales – below what you saw with the Wii. But even with those numbers built into our model, we still see the stock trading at steep, steep discounts if you assume these numbers we’ve presented.

We think they’re going to double earnings over the next two years, and double or triple free cash flow, which is the most important measure for us. And, as a result, we think we’ll see the stock price rebound from this current level of about $22 a share. Even if they only get partial credit for all that, we think it will trade well north of $33 to $35 on a fair value sensible basis.

Forbes: What kind of a time frame are you talking about?

Richey: We think this is two years out. The 3DS will take time to build market share, and then the Wii U will be introduced some time in mid-2012, leading up to the all-important Christmas holiday season. In these companies, that November-December timeframe makes a large portion of their sales.

So patience is required with Nintendo. But you have an undergirding of $14 billion in cash, of which they only spend about $500 million a year in capital expenditures. In fact, the biggest problem that they have, in terms of cash usage, is rolling their short-term investments over in Yen, Dollars, and Euros.

So the cash pile is very attractive, but in many ways, ironically, it has been a detriment trying to roll it forward. If interest rates do start to increase in Europe and the U.S., and possibly Japan, they’ll get a higher return on their money.

Forbes: Meanwhile, it sounds like you’ve got a pretty sound investment with a tremendous amount of cash.

Richey: It’s an unusual investment for value, since value investors have tended to shy away from technology. But the truth is that what was cutting-edge technology 15 years ago is now everyday technology, and you can’t just see the word “technology” anymore and run for the hills.

Forbes: The world has changed.

Richey: Yes, absolutely. There’s no going back.

But we think that the console space is a fairly safe space for the next ten years. It will be safe through this generation of televisions and what we anticipate is the transition from the LED flat screens to OLED flat screens. That transition will start in about 2015, and actually may prove a boost in the longer term. We think, at that point, 3D TV – without glasses and on an OLED screen – will be enough of an immersive experience to finally spawn the 3D age we’ve all been anticipating for the past 3 to 5 years. That, we think, will give another boost to the console space. Because right now 3D, in its current form, is not immersive enough, whether at the movie theater or on your home television.

Forbes: But if you can do it without glasses, that changes it.

Richey: Absolutely. Nobody likes those dorky, clunky glasses. And when you improve the resolution by several magnitudes – which is what will happen with the OLED screens that Samsung, Sony and LG are developing right now – that will extend the life of the console gaming business to the 2020s.

Forbes: Sounds good.

Richey: We’re out on a limb making these predictions, but we already hold Corning and Samsung, so we are very sensitive about what is going on in the television set industry.
 
Zidart said:
however I highly doubt anything can get them back to NES/SNES status as far as gamers go

I think that is so true. However I think that part of the problem is the difference between the market back then vs now. Back then you had so many little game companies. No one was afraid of investing in developing games for the systems that were out there. At one point it was mainly the NES that was it. The air was filled with electricity and excitement. It was the new frontier after the crash. Everyone was willing to take a chance. And Nintendo was standing at the top of the mountain.

Now, at this point, a lot gamers have matured. They are looking beyond the games you can beat in one setting. Game companies have become like factories, they manufacture games porting them to every system that fits the plumbline. No one wants to take the time to develope for something that needs an extra investment in the hardware that is so different. Times are tight and tough. They need the game that they throw out there to be successful.

Nintendo needs to get out of the N64 gutter and quit isolating themselves from the game world. I love Nintendo stuff. (I must like it, I keep purchasing it) But they have gotten lost along the way. They are so focused on innovation right now that they have forgotten the games that they are capable of producing. I really think they have had a hard time adjusting to the changes to the gaming market. They are still trying to produce the NES,....... again.
 
stealth toilet said:
We can all see the writing on the wall. The Wii was a fluke, a lucky success, neither capitalized on nor built upon in any way. With its glory days well in the past, and the recent blunder that has been the 3DS, I think we can all see that the Nintendo we knew and loved has entered its sunset years.

But what do you think? Will Nintendo ever recapture the dominance and glory that was the SNES? Have they got something up their sleeve that will be a game changer? Is the new Nintendo system/controller going to revolutionize the industry? Am I too early in putting the last nail in their coffin?
You're waaaaaaay too early. They just came off the most successful system since....ever in the form of the DS and while the Wii is on its last legs, they've made buckets of money on it. Nintendo decided not to sell at a loss early this generation, like console-makers usually do so each Wii sold immediately paid for itself and more. They're already in the black and even if they don't sell another Wii, they're still leaving this generation in great shape. In fact, they're still projecting a 20 million yen profit for this fiscal year, even as both of their consoles are about to die off. Regardless of what wii ( :D) think about the direction Nintendo has taken over the past five years, its financial health and success is undeniable. This success is by no means guaranteed to continue, but Nintendo is in its best financial shape since the SNES.
 
Fair enough. I was being over-dramatic with the doomsday scenario, but you have to admit, the total lack of 3DS sales is a bit startling. Nintendo has time/money to maneuver out of whatever they get themselves into, but at the moment they are going to have to do some maneuvering, and anytime you get into that situation it becomes questionable when, how, and if you can get out.

Too early to say one way or the other? Yes, absolutely. But recent moves cast some serious doubt on their understanding of the video game market, as others have pointed out.
 
stealth toilet said:
Fair enough. I was being over-dramatic with the doomsday scenario, but you have to admit, the total lack of 3DS sales is a bit startling. Nintendo has time/money to maneuver out of whatever they get themselves into, but at the moment they are going to have to do some maneuvering, and anytime you get into that situation it becomes questionable when, how, and if you can get out.

Too early to say one way or the other? Yes, absolutely. But recent moves cast some serious doubt on their understanding of the video game market, as others have pointed out.
I'll admit, the 3DS definitely isn't doing well right now and that if any of the big three are going to have trouble recognizing and adjusting to changes in the market, it's going to be Nintendo. That being said, it's far too soon to start expecting the end of Nintendo. The 3DS is very early in its life-span. Given some time, it could still be very successful and it's way too early to say anything about the Wii U really. It could easily recapture the success and magic of the Wii. Nintendo may have some rough times ahead, but their success last generation basically guarantees the company's survival through this generation.
 
stealth toilet said:
Fair enough. I was being over-dramatic with the doomsday scenario, but you have to admit, the total lack of 3DS sales is a bit startling.

You don't say? :P I would actually put "I was being the antagonist". All we need is a mustache and a cool hat....and viola!

images
 
hm... yeah. Nothing new here. Their DS is still selling well. 3DS was a cool idea... but just not perceived... and it's hard to do well with a device that 25% of the world's population can't even see due to the technology used.

I'm not shocked. Nintendo will have yet another console... and yet another handheld that pwns all consoles combined. For anyone to pass up the DS success... it paralleled SNES IMO. I know many won't agree... but I'm calling it right now.

If you need to point at a company... Sony seems to be hurting.

One thing to remember... Nintendo always makes money. I don't care about all the negative nancy's... I still like playing the Wii. I have at least 40 good games. Yes... I own all systems from current gen to the NES (sans CD-i and 3D0). I play the Ps3 the most right now... followed by PC. I Don't want to hear fanboy comments :lol

†B†V† :hat
 
WE use our ps3 more then the wii, but we still definately use the wii. Just lately we were playing Boom Blox and Smash Bros on the wii. I am mainly just waiting for more cool games to come out on it like the new Kirby and Zelda ones.

I think the reg DS did great and that people really loved it and that it went over well. I feel like I see way more people with DS then psp whenever I am out.

I dunno how the 3ds is doing. My husband really wants one, and I want the games, but it does not feel like a new system..just a add on, so add ons sometimes flop er do well, and that does not feel like a big deal in my head.

I know sega sadly quit majing systems, but I really doubt that will happen anytime soon to Nintendo. Too many people still love them and their games and are willing to pay for the system to play it on.

Sure the ps3 got really popular and lots of people like 360...I own all three. But why should I choose when I can have all? I think lots of people feel that way...its like having multiple tv channels er something.

So, since people can afford to have more then one and think its worth investing in more then one, I don't really see it going under. Video games are really popular and wildly accepted now. You don't have to choose between systems. Its not weird to have more then one.
 
I think without coming up with some new characters in a new series, they are going to have a hard time drawing in gamers in years to come.

If I think back to my time playing the SNES, I do remember Zelda and Mario. But those were the tip of the iceberg. Now it seems aside from random party games they have, or exercise and dance ones, they rely heavily on their 2 heavy hitting franchises over and over again. I want some new fun and exciting RPG, though haven't really seen it thus far. I haven't been overly impressed with anything that's come out enough for me to want to invest what gaming money I do have over, say, buying the new Fallout or Elder Scrolls game.

Makes me sad to say since Nintendo used to be my choice of system and game... :(
 
MoonLily said:
I think without coming up with some new characters in a new series, they are going to have a hard time drawing in gamers in years to come.

If I think back to my time playing the SNES, I do remember Zelda and Mario. But those were the tip of the iceberg. Now it seems aside from random party games they have, or exercise and dance ones, they rely heavily on their 2 heavy hitting franchises over and over again. I want some new fun and exciting RPG, though haven't really seen it thus far. I haven't been overly impressed with anything that's come out enough for me to want to invest what gaming money I do have over, say, buying the new Fallout or Elder Scrolls game.

Makes me sad to say since Nintendo used to be my choice of system and game... :(

I think it's because over the years, gamers would get mad if they didn't see those 2 heavy hitting franchises. Now they're tired of it and are demanding newer franchises. It's a cycle that Nintendo gets caught up in rather easily. The other 2 get that as well, but not to the extent that Nintendo does.
 
CreepinDeth said:
I think it's because over the years, gamers would get mad if they didn't see those 2 heavy hitting franchises. Now they're tired of it and are demanding newer franchises. It's a cycle that Nintendo gets caught up in rather easily. The other 2 get that as well, but not to the extent that Nintendo does.

Well, I know I would prolly be quite dissapointed and not even buy a nintendo console if they quit making mario and zelda games. I expect them to keep putting out Metroid ones too, and Kirby.

It would be great if they came out with cool new original stuff, and I wish they would, but I feel like they try to. I mean, Pikmin was cool and that was something different, and prolly not many people agree with me but I loved chibi robo too.
 
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